EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH PAKISTAN'S AMBASSADOR

On the 2nd of June, Jamia was received by the Ambassador of Pakistan, Dr Muhammad Khalid Ejaz, to discuss the main pressing themes for Pakistanis abroad and in Portugal currently – the conflict with India and the integration of the Pakistani diaspora.

Ambassador Ejaz, who has served as Ambassador of Pakistan in Argentina and represented his country in Australia, Kuwait and the USA, gave us Pakistan’s view on the on-going ceasefire with India and the fear that the Indus Water Treaty might be broken as well as the outreach efforts the Embassy of Pakistan in Lisbon has been making to ensure the community in Portugal is well integrated and at home.

We thank Ambassador Ejaz, and the entire team of the Embassy of Pakistan in Lisbon, for the warm welcome and open discussion that followed.

Q: I would start by asking a very general question, but that will be important for our readers who might not have a full view of the situation. I would like to ask you to please explain.Pakistan’s current stance on the regional confrontation with India because we already had military confrontation, then we had a ceasefire. And now of course, where we're seeing the news and we're seeing this almost kind of blackmail situation if you would like, if we could use that term involving the dams. So we're looking at a situation that seems to be undergoing a ceasefire but, at the same time, we're talking about a possible humanitarian crisis when they're talking about the denial of water to the population of Pakistan.

A: Thank you very much for coming to the embassy and discussing these issues. You know that Pakistan and India both are nuclear armed countries and the current irresponsible behavior and unilateral actions by India brought the two states to the brink of a catastrophic war. Thank God, with the help of friendly countries, the war did not escalate further, rather it was averted.

What we say is that the core problem remains, the core issue or the core dispute, which has been going on for more than seven decades, remains. And in the whole dispute a basic issue is that the Kashmiris must be provided an opportunity to express their free will about their destiny. So if their destiny is decided by some other forces, then definitely the problem, just as it could not be solved for more than 75 years, it will not be solved, so better to provide the people of Kashmir an opportunity. This is our view, and it has been guaranteed by the UN Security Council resolutions, that the people of Kashmir would be provided a chance to express their will through a free and fair referendum under the UN’s auspices.

If that right is denied and if a country takes unilateral actions, then definitely the problem will remain, especially in this case scenario when there is some incident happening in Indian illegally occupied Kashmir, Pakistan, also like other countries express condolences on this sad incident. And we in Pakistan have been the victims of terrorism, orchestrated especially by India. And we have been facing it, we lost so many lives, but when this incident happened in Pehalgam, we offered immediately condolences, and then we offered to have a investigation by impartial people, by international experts, so that we can find out who are the perpetrators. As of today, India has not provided access nor accepted to have international observers or investigators to come investigate this issue. Even India could not itself provide any evidence as of yet, any credible evidence, just conjectures. So based on some conjectures, based on their understanding of their own realities, they had done so many things wrong to the international order, and one was that unilaterally India not only attacked the civilians and places of worship and people in Kashmir but also inside the international border, they crossed the international border and attacked inside Pakistan. So Pakistan initially stated that we want peace, we want to understand each other, but we would not compromise on our sovereignty. So based on our very clear cut understanding and our statements, we took in our self defense certain measures, and they were well graduated within the limits and proportionate. And when we responded to Indian aggression six of the Indian jet fighter planes were shot down by Pakistan Air Force, and so many other damages we caused to the Indian military bases. So based on that, India probably had to revise their strategy and the international community intervened and there was a ceasefire.

The ceasefire on the military front, the two countries have accepted it and we want this ceasefire to be a permanent ceasefire, we want peace to prevail. We want to see people live in peace, especially the Kashmiris. Because the Kashmiri who were there were the victim of this sort of problems. They're the victims. The people of Kashmir are suffering. So we want that ceasefire to continue and peace to prevail. But India, sometimes Indian diplomats say that the so-called Operation Sindoor continues. So what does that signify? I am amazed to understand what sort of Operation Sindoor they want to continue, whether they can think that it's continuous. But it is very clear, Pakistan has made very clear that we would not violate the sovereignty of any other country, but we would not allow any other country to do that either.

On the other front, based on their own assessment, India announced that the Indus Water Treaty, which was signed in 1960 between Pakistan and India, with the auspices of World Bank, India held it in abeyance. A treaty is an international obligation between the two countries. So how can a country do a unilateral action and suspend the international treaty agreements? If you want to know further details I can provide you, but Pakistan has totally rejected it.

And Pakistan is, in this case, a low riparian country, a downstream country. We receive water from Kashmir and other parts of India. But if this becomes a norm what would happen all the arrangements which have been there, with the lower and upper stream countries in the world, that upstream countries start blocking or diverting water, utilizing it, and what would happen with so many other countries that have such an agreement? So we urge our friends in Portugal to look at this issue very carefully and see that if this becomes a practice in the national order, that a strong or upper country stops the waterflow to the downstream country, then that would not be good in the long run for any country. Thirdly, when the Pehalgam incident happened, they were emotionally shocked. It's okay. But as a responsible country and responsible people, nobody would accept collective punishment against Muslims in Kashmir or any other parts of India. So the houses of the Muslims were demolished, they were attacked. And how a country claims to be in international arena when the human rights record is so miserable, so pitiable. So that's why OIC had strongly condemned all such reprisal actions, all such collective punishments, all such detentions and arrests. Arbitrary use of force against the civilians in Jammu and Kashmir. So these are the issues which are very relevant to our discussions during the UN Security Council reforms, the discussions in which there are some elements thattry to support some countries based on their size size, but the human rights’ record must be kept in mind when we discuss about any responsible position in any international body. of a country. So this must come into discussion and the country must behave in that way.

Q: You mentioned something that's important to point out and that ties in with the second question. You mentioned that some Indian embassies have put up banners saying that Operation Sindoor continues. A few weeks agothere was a Pakistani protest in front of the Indian Embassy here in Lisbon where those banners were put up. I would like to ask you how has this conflict affected the Pakistani diaspora, especially here in Portugal?

A: One or two journalists asked me that, “what do you say when there are some banners after the protest which were put on the chancellery building of the embassy saying Operation Sindoor continues?”. I don't want to comment on the conduct of any other embassy, it's up to them to decide and the host country to decide about it. But my point of view, what is more relevant to me, is the effect on the diaspora. Pakistanis love their country like any other brave people of the world.

To work for the honor and safety of the country. So they were badly disturbed that civilians are being killed in Pakistan, that a big neighboring country has attacked their country violating international borders, weaponization of water, stopping the water their families survive on. So they were not only saddened, but they were also very fearful that one of the big neighbor would be dealing with Pakistan in such a fashion. So definitely, as a human being, they are affected. I don't have much knowledge, I have just heard from the media that they, some Kashmiris and Pakistanis, they were affected and they had made so many gestures with the permission of the legal authorities, writing to newspapers, giving interviews, making some legal protests. So it's up to the host country to say about it. I have been approached by not only Pakistanis, I'm thankful to the Muslim community here in Portugal where they have come to me offering especially condolences on the civilian deaths in Pakistan. And they were deeply worried about the situation and I'm very thankful to the Muslim leadership of Portugal, some of them were from Mozambique and some from Kashmir, from various countries, they also came and they expressed their concerns for the betterment of my country. I'm very thankful to them. So definitely things are interconnected. You can see the water issue which India has just created for Pakistan, I have heard in certain media that there's some water issues between India and other neighbors, that has certainly increased.

If these water issues are weaponized, it becomes not a technical issue, but rather used for political gains, so peoples and their lives, their agriculture, their living and their ecosystem, in a civilization that is based on an agricultural system, which is more than 5,000 years old, so if that is altered, then the whole way of living is altered. So it's a matter for sustainable living as well. So it should be a matter of all nations and people of the world.

Q: Moving a little bit away from the international aspect and grounding it here in Portugal because I know that's another of your priorities, the Pakistani Embassy lately has been placing a great emphasis in the subject of Pakistani integration here in Portugal.We just had our elections and you saw that there was an increase in the far right. CHEGA, which is a party known for their positions against immigration and especially against immigration from the Middle East, has become the main opposition party. They have over 60 Members of Parliament. And this is a change, this is a big difference to the usual typical composition of the Portuguese Assembly. How do you feel that this change will impact the Pakistani community here in Portugal?

A: Thank you very much. You have brought a very important question. Let me say at the very outset, that I respect the will of the people, which they have expressed through their ballots. So we must respect it. Now on the other side, because I represent my country only. what is my responsibility? My responsibility? That is that I have to tell my community that let's start some dialogue. Let's discuss and talk to the civil society. Talk to the journalists, talk to the academics, and talk to the city mayors, counselors and government officials and politicians, and tell them that we are also a valuable part of the society. We want to contribute and tell them our own perspective because every coin has two dimensions. So if you don't talk, if you don't converse, if you don't meet, then we would live in silos. So silos would never help. First of all, we are all human beings. We all have feelings, we all have families.

Let's discuss, let's understand each other's perspective so we have our own perspective. And I found that most of the Pakistanis here in Portugal are very hardworking and energetic and most of them are very young as well. So they don't sometimes have the idea of how to respond to certain challenges because they're facing numerous challenges, the first is with the language barrier. And away from families, housing issues, housing costs, unemployment, so many issues they face. And when they go to access public services, because of the language barrier or sometimes because of other reasons, they don't get some of the optimal benefits of those services.

So first of all we as a team, Mr. Umair and other team members, we organized them [the Pakistani Community], called them here and discussed with them in various circles. To organize themselves to have some soft networks. So we created soft networks through social media. We have created soft networks of women especially, because they are sometimes not well represented. Now we have two, three groups of women all over Portugal, and they organize what we call bazaars of small business owners.

Sometimes they provide cultural objects, food, and so many more things, so as an embassy we try to promote those events. We participate, we encourage them, we talk to them, we discuss issues and so that provides them some sense of being in Portugal. I'm very proud of my team, especially led by Mr Umair [Head of Chancery and Second Secretary], who are working very hard to bring these people closer to the embassy. Certain issues crop up, definitely. So there's the vital role of the Embassy, when people come across so many issues like accidents, like death, there's an important need to provide services. I'm very thankful to the Portuguese Ministry of Foreign Affairs and their officers, especially the PSP, the current Police Chief and others, who listen to our point of view. We are in conversations with AIMA, we are in conversations with the PSP, we are in conversations with so many authorities here, telling our perspective. So these issues need to be discussed and so what I have done in the last, three, four months, we had conversations in Portuguese universities and we had an international conference where there were academics and the civil society, where we discussed about what are the challenges for integration and how can we work for that. Then we had a project with a school, in a local parish, where they came to my residence and we had a informal discussion and food together, ethnic food of Pakistan, and we tried to give a message to the students that, while you are in Portugal, you must learn the Portuguese language. You must respect the whole country and the culture while you are free to express your views very politely.

So recently I've heard the Mayor of Braga, who is a wonderful person, I met him as well, he had recently announced that he has the biggest challenge of multiple nationalities, more than a hundred nationalities in his constituency, in the schools and he says there's a tremendous problem for us. So we have offered our services, our embassy, whatever means are there, we will be bringing together the communities, especially the Pakistani community, but we also have relationships with the Arab communities, Muslim communities, Bengali and Nepalis, we can bring them together to have informal discussions on how to find solutions because Portugal has traditionally been a welcoming state for immigrants. You have a huge diaspora abroad as well, more than 4 million people. So you understand, and you have been a power in the international arena for the last 500 years. So you have good understanding of the international scenario. And, we want to even discuss with critical elements or leadership.

Q: Earlier at the start of our conversation, you mentioned Mr. Saqid Khan, the Mayor of London. Looking at Portugal, and since we're looking soon enough in a few months, we will have our own local elections, considering how the community has been integrated, and especially in certain specific places of Lisbon looking to the future do you see the Pakistani community becoming involved in Portuguese local elections? Do you think it's possible to say that, for example, in the future in this parish of Lisbon, there will be a Pakistani community leader that has become president?

A: This is an important issue. Actually, because of so many reasons, especially the language barrier, I found that there was less interaction with the city authorities or with the political system, especially of the Pakistani community which has increased in the last years. And we hope that the Pakistani community can carve a special place for them in the political system and the municipal system as well. This is definitely needed for the betterment of both the communities, the host community as well as for the Pakistani community so that they can have some representation in the parishes and councils and others, and they can also play an active role in civil society.

I found my Pakistani, especially women and entrepreneurs, now with the active collaboration with this Embassy, with a very vibrant team here, they are trying to find out their rightful place in society as well.

Q: And now just to close looking at all the places you have been, you have served in Australia, the United States of America.You have also served in Argentina and in that condition you represented Pakistani in many of its neighboring countries. Looking at those countries, and some of those are very significant Pakistani nationals. The United States, for example, we're talking about almost 700 thousand Pakistani in the United States. How do you feel that Pakistani nationals have integrated in those countries? And what can Portugal learn from those integration efforts that we can apply here to make sure that the Pakistani community is well integrated, that they feel like they are at home, as they do in those countries?

A: You have rightly pointed out actually, because of our colonial past with the British, English is well understood in my country and is taught in the school levels. So most of the Pakistanis who are literate, they can really speak and read English right. So for them the integration in Australia, Canada, UK, even the USA, this barrier was not there. the language barrier. So you can see that the Pakistani communities have performed well in the UK because it's their third generation there, they're playing a meaningful role. And even a city like London has a Pakistani mayor, Mr Sadiq Khan, there. So the language is just a medium of communication, but I found that Portuguese people are very kind hearted, very open-minded. Wherever I have gone, I found them very welcoming people. They don't nurture biases. They don't have discriminations and they're not affected by those rhetorics of Islamophobia and others.

Generally it's my feeling, to be very frank and honest, the Portuguese are very warmhearted, very good people. They're really sensitive people and they respect others. I went to Mértola recently and there was an Islamic Festival. I met with the Mayor, I met the civil society people there, we had a wonderful discussion. Then they told me that there's a mosque from the ninth century and it's now currently a church, but many elements of the mosque are there. So when they took me there, I asked the administration if I could pray here because it was my praye rtime and they especially opened a place for me to pray. So I am praying there for her and it was a good experience. And see how they're tolerant that okay, you are a Christian, you can do the worship and if you're Muslim, you can do your own worship here in this place. So it was a very refreshing experience for me.This shows the warmhearted behavior, the large heartedness of the Portuguese society. So I asked twice, once with the guide and then the administrator “Can I pray? Is it legally permissible to pray?” “Yes, no problem”. They even opened the door and lifted the barrier, so this shows that I'm very confident that if this behavior is there then definitely this is a wonderful country and that would open up this country in the international area for better cultural understanding, and it'll augment the economy of both the countries and other countries like that.